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I’m sorry to drag what started out as a mostly ironic twitter disc horse on here, but I’m unironically a bedtime abolitionist. The current diurnal norm is incredibly ableist to people who have circadian rhythm disorders (like me). I shouldn’t be forced to be awake in the middle of my circadian night, I shouldn’t be forced to suffer chronic sleep deprivation. All people should be able to follow their natural sleep rhythms. I want a world in which alarm clocks are obsolete.

Having N24 causes my natural sleep time to constantly shift, and all I can say I’m incredibly jealous of morning people. I’m surprised every time how easy and enjoyable life is when my sleep rhythm aligns with that of a morning person. This world is built for morning people and most people don’t even think about it as a privilege because we’re conditioned to think of morning people as somehow morally superior.

So many people struggle to stay awake in the morning and think of it as them being a bad, lazy person. They think that if only they tried harder they could be a morning person. But that’s not how this works, this is not a matter of choice, these people are forced awake for part of their natural sleep phase, their peak period of awareness is later, their biological clock simply runs delayed compared to morning people.

This is not a matter of moral superiority or choice, this is simply how your body works, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem here is that society forces people in the rhythm of morning people, causing a sort of (usually mild) constant jetlag. If society wouldn’t mandate when people have to get up (to get to work, school, ect), then there would be no such thing as a “good” or “bad” sleep rhythm.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse in the city, my ability to wake up in the morning is nil most of the time, but if i go camping in a forest for a week, suddenly it's not as much of a problem.

the mechanical clock is definitely a curse on the working class. even as children, they make us wake up at absurdly early hours to do pointless math problems and don't understand why some people start off okay but quickly burn out.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I agree with all this.

I find myself suddenly in the position of an extreme morning person thanks to time zones (Central time zone working for Pacific time zone team). I have 2 hours of time before anyone else is even around, and it makes things so much easier (and more productive).

Everything really is designed for morning people, and I've noticed that a disproportionate number of executives are morning people, so they push a morning person agenda.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse
All through college and even up until 30 or so I was pretty hopeless at keeping a "normal" schedule, but now I sleep from 11pm-7am (the start time shifts frequently, ranging from 10pm to 1am, but the wake time is very stable).

The biggest factor is simply age, I need noticeably less sleep even in my late 30s, I often wake up naturally after just 7 hours and that's just fine at my age. I definitely needed more sleep when I was younger.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse This age factor further accentuates morning person dominance, since people in truly old age usually only need 4-5 hours of sleep, so the early morning is pretty much always available for them.

Technically, night time is also available for them too, but there's a shift towards having more energy in the morning with age.

So, an elder dominated society is naturally a morning person dominated society too.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse
Btw, I also have 2 light therapy capable desk lamps on either side of my bed. I hooked them up to an electric timer, so they go on at 7am, which is probably why my wake up time is so stable at 7am, but it's not like an alarm and I wake up anywhere in a 60 minute window, and get sleepy earlier too.

I highly recommend this setup for anyone with sleep issues. It helped me to reach stability before I likely would have from reduced sleep period alone.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I specifically had N24-like symptoms. I still kinda do, with my sleep start time drifting forward, but nowadays I "click" back to early after I start to get off track.

Oh, the other big factor was that I banished all bright and non-red light when trying to get to sleep. I have to stop using the computer by 10pm, full stop. Even with red shift it's just too much light.

I still use my phone at reduced brightness, and I have pure red LED lights for reading

@enby_of_the_apocalypse In the past I tried melatonin, but it simply increased my sleep quality. I already have good sleep quality most nights, so it didn't help me.

It would be useful for someone with the kind of insomnia where their sleep is regularly interrupted though.

My issue was simply getting to sleep in the first place.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse All that said, it would be nice if I didn't need to "fix" my circadian rhythms in the first place (or have incentives to be on my computer so late, whether to complete work or sneak in some rare leisure time that I definitely won't have tomorrow).

Different chronotypes are already socially beneficial, since extreme night and morning people naturally cover times when everyone else is asleep...

@urusan I do the reducing light thing too, it helps a lot to slow the shifting of my sleep rhythm down (which is the goal, to slow it down until you can stay in a normal sleep rhythm for as long as possible, but sucks if you’re stuck in the nocturnal phase longer like I am currently)
I still use my computer at night because as a computer science student I kinda have to and also almost all my hobbies are computer related, but I use f.lux which helps a lot

@urusan I really didn’t expect f.lux to help this much, it’s such a huge difference to no blue light filter. I’m now thinking about getting a better one than Night Shift on my phone as well, and/or maybe even getting glasses that block out blue light to wear before I go to bed.

@urusan I’ve tried light therapy lamps before but they only made my eyes hurt (am very light sensitive even when I get enough sleep, sleep deprivation makes it worse), so it’s dark therapy only for me.

@urusan@fosstodon.org @enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social

I think my circadian told my rhythm to go take a hike.

on average i target between 4 when i go to sleep and 10 to 12 when i wake up but this is only on average.
if you actually took a chart of my sleeping schedule it would look like a drunk dried to play darts for the first time.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse there would have been a survival advantage in fact in different members of the family/tribe having different cardian rhythms

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I remember that during my job training, vocational school started at 7:30

so I had to leave at home at fucking 5:30

I often fell asleep on the train and often couldn't keep my eyes open until like 10

@LunaDragofelis it’s not as bad for me currently, uni starts at 8:15 and I’m not that far from uni, but still it sucks and I struggle to stay awake at uni a lot

@enby_of_the_apocalypse @LunaDragofelis

I consider forcing everyone to be "morning people" actively harmful and dangerous, I suspect its a contributory factor to many road traffic collisions and industrial accidents, particularly when workers are forced to drive long distances with insufficient sleep due to work requirements..

@vfrmedia @LunaDragofelis agreed. It’s probably also shortening most people’s lifespans even if there weren’t more accidents because sleep deprivation is really not good for your health

@enby_of_the_apocalypse That's my experience, too. I can't prove that fighting DSPD in order to secure a paycheck caused the evolution to non-24, but that's my perception of it. If I fight it now, I'm rewarded with insomnia for up to a month.

As employment goes, at-will employment effectively cancels the ADA for any with an "invisible disability", so now I'm 60 with no retirement savings and no social security contributions in this century. Great fkn system we've got, eh?

@HappyHeathen I get insomnia if I force myself to “just go to bed and get up at the same time every day” (as the common useless advice from people without CRDs goes) too…

And yeah i’m very worried I’ll never be able to have a job (not that I would enjoy working, but being poor isn’t fun). I’m currently a uni student and so have a little bit of flexibility (I often don’t attend lectures to sleep and then later read the slides, I’m definitely at a disadvantage but I can manage somewhat)…

@HappyHeathen …but I’m kind of worried that all of this will be for nothing, sometimes I think I might as well give up

@enby_of_the_apocalypse 🙁 It's damnably difficult, for sure.

The monopolists of tech finally took the last of my market just last month, and my last option is much harder due to the brain fog of non-24 so my ultimate defeat may be near. All I know is that I'll be trampled when I stop running, so I'd prefer to be unconscious when I drop.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse another aspect I hate is trying to get any doctor to take you seriously, I've had trouble being a morning person for my whole life but if I complain to a doctor they have every excuse in the world not to check if you actually have a sleep disorder. It's so frustrating.

@konomikitten I’m going to tell my psychiatrist about my sleep issues, wish me luck… and yeah, it’s really sad how little knowledge most doctors have. I hope that now after I’ve followed my ergotherapists advice about “sleep hygiene” for some time and it didn’t work they’ll take this a bit more serious…

@enby_of_the_apocalypse @konomikitten I hope so. The first "sleep specialist" I saw essentially told me my sleep disorder doesn't exist and to improve my sleep hygiene. Had to fight my GP to get a second opinion. Got a correct diagnosis within 5 minutes then.

Didn't do me all that much good in the end though. Light therapy only helps my maintain a balanced schedule when nothing else (like my insomnia) upsets it. And I still can't get the accommodations I'm legally entitled to.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse Offset circadian rhythms is a prime example of a "disorder" that is only considered a disorder because it's not what the Capital class likes.

@AinoTerran exactly, it’s only making my life harder (a lot harder actually) because the capitalists force us to go to work (and school, uni, ect) at the same time (in the morning). And it even impacts common chronotypes (your average night owls) a lot. If it wasn’t for that it would just be a trait like any other not a disability.

@AinoTerran @enby_of_the_apocalypse a.k.a. "The sun is up, why aren't you making me money yet?"

@AinoTerran@kolektiva.social @enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social Don't you think that even in a non-capitalist world, being awake when most others are and when there is sunlight is beneficial?

@AinoTerran @himbeer kind of, but it’d make life by far not as hard as in a capitalist society.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social @AinoTerran@kolektiva.social but it'd still be a big disadvantage so it would probably also be considered a disorder there

@AinoTerran @himbeer just because something gives you a disadvantage that doesn’t mean it’s a disorder. Being tall makes me more likely to get back pain, does that mean my tallness is a disorder?

@enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social @AinoTerran@kolektiva.social Chronic back pain is considered a disorder, yeah.
Look I'm not going to fight with you on some stupid terminology. Does it matter if it's called a disorder or not?

@enby_of_the_apocalypse@kolektiva.social @AinoTerran@kolektiva.social Thank you, I did not mean to be mean. You are still absolutely right that the capitalist society is what makes night-owl life much more difficult.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I heavily relate and I'm very glad to see I'm not the only person in the world who holds that opinion

@enby_of_the_apocalypse Exactly!

Just having delayed sleep phase disorder & insomnia was bad enough. And 99% of that was the result of ableism: people refusing to make (often extremely simple) accommodations for my sleep schedule, even when they were legally required to.

Now that I also have ME -- including unrefreshing sleep, extreme fatigue, and POTS -- it's even worse :tiredcat:

And doctors keep telling me there's "nothing wrong" (I fought years for a DSPD diagnosis).

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I'm convinced there's an evolutionary advantage in our having different circadian rhythms: the night owls watch out for predators while the early birds sleep and vice versa. It's agriculture and especially capitalism that rewards the early bird and demonises the night owl.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I never realized how weird my sleep was until I got a morning-person desk job and after a year or so could barely function at any time of day whatsoever

It's absolutely a form of violence to make non-morning-people have to adhere to that schedule

@witchfynder_finder it is. Chronic sleep deprivation is so incredibly unhealthy, forcing us into a morning person sleep rhythm is violence.

@enby_of_the_apocalypse I have insomnia and other sleep issues since I was very young... so yes this whole morning person thing is kind of bs, but I have noticed in some countries being up at like 6 am or something ridiculous like that and starting your day in a hurry (drinking coffee while walking and such), this is kind of not a thing. I take my time starting my day and that isn't cuz Im lazy, it is just better.

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